On the shows when Cesar snaps his fingers and points at the dog, the dog usually sits.  Is that because the dog has previously been taught the sit by his owners or is that the expected behavior?  What would happen if Cesar snapped his fingers and pointed and the dog did not previously know the sit behavior? 

I have a client who has a 14 week old Weimeraner named Ella.  Because the pup is "biting" (just normal puppy behavior but they saw it as aggression) they were trying to be pack leader by doing the alpha roll.  This has now caused the pup to see them as unsafe and she starts to avoid them.  I fixed the problem, but they watched Cesar and were trying to be "pack leader".

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Andrea Dugan
www.NaturalK9Training.com
http://forum2.aimoo.com/NaturalK9Training
(New Shelter Forum)

Hi Andrea,

I think the key is education of the public on what should be expected of a puppy. I have little Lexi here now and she is around 5-6 months old. I am doing the lip curl over her baby canine and she will do a quick yelp, and it is over. She has caught on tothis and is not mouthing nearly as much. She also has a lot of bones in her crate and toys that she is mouthing on. 

That is a shame on the lack of judgement on your clients part. The weim being a cousin of the GWP somewhat displays much the same behavior as they are a hunting breed, and also need something in their mouth to carry around to retrieve. I am glad you were able to fix the problem, and educate them properly. I am hoping the forums here will lend the proper information to new dog owners, so that they may understand the behavior and developmental stages of the new puppy. 

As far as the dogs sitting....LOL. I can only speculate that they have been taught. However....we get in new rescue dogs all the time, and I did not teach Lexi. She came in at 3 months old, and would also sit when I would make a marking sound and point. She was very observant of the older dogs, and I do think she had picked up on their behaviors.

Mary

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Mary Murray
www.Gwprescue.com
Cesar Millan Ambassador
http://www.sessionswithcesar.com/GiftCard/PurchaseGiftCard.aspx


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Hi Mary,

I was reading your post and was hoping you could teach me the lip curl over the canine?  I have a 4th yorkie-poo and OMG, her mouth should be a weapon of mass destruction.  = )     I have cuts up and down my hands and arms.   I have tried the finger down the thoart to try and make her stop and it works for a bit but not completely.   I have also grabbed the back of her neck where the extra skin lies when she gets really aggressive.

It seems the more I try to correct the behavior, the more she becomes aggressive.   I also use the "snap fingers and shhh sound" before I say "no."  And at first it worked so well and now it seems I have to repeat the actions 3 or 4 times with a tap under her rib cage her to stop a bad behavior.

I have to admit that I am becoming a bit exhausted chasing her around and correcting all her mouthing habits.  She has so many chew toys and yet my hands and feet seem to be her favorite. 

Thanks so much in advance,

Heather

Why would you want to hurt your dog just to teach him a lesson.  Figure out a better way.

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Andrea Dugan
www.NaturalK9Training.com
http://forum2.aimoo.com/NaturalK9Training
(New Shelter Forum)

Heather,

From your post, it sounds as if you are correcting out of frustration instead of calm/assertive leadership.

Are you aware of the "claw bite" that Cesar uses? This simulates a dog's bite, "a leaders correction" in a pack of dogs. But regardless of what you're doing, the dog is not taking your correction seriously. To hear that you advanced to sticking the finger down the dog's throat only enforces that this dog is not accepting of your leadership. All the "tools" and "methods" in the world will not work unless the enegy behind them is in place and done properly.

The lip curl, done inproperly will only harm the dog and create bad behavior. In my opinion this is an unnecessary method, along with sticking the finger down the throat. Instead, try leashing the dog, and placing her in a seated position. If she moves, give her a quick "snap' with the leash and make her sit, if you are afraid to touch her. It sounds to me, with this small of a dog, that you are simply not in control or respected by your dog.

Make sure you are establishing leadership ALL THE TIME, such as entering/exiting through the doors first; up/down stairs first; no dogs on furniture unless invited by you; and make sure all obedience is in place. Sit means sit, not place bottom and rise back up again. While I'm not there to observe in person, I have no doubt from your post that her gnawing/biting is simply an extension of other behavior issues that you are not aware of because they are not as physically noticable or harmful.

Please consider finding some better alternatives to correcting your dog and establishing your leadership that wont harm the dog.

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Linda R. Blakely, Director
Raccoon Valley Animal Sanctuary & Rescue
www.raccoonvalley.com
Cesar Millan Ambassador

Very well put.  Obviously more information than I could muster at the moment.  I hope that many trainers have taken the hippocratic oath (sp?), "Do no harm".  They are dogs acting exactly like dogs are supposed to act.  We are the ones that are trying to get them to abide by our rules and regulations, so why does this have to be done in a painful, harmful way?  It doesn't and it shouldn't.

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Andrea Dugan
www.NaturalK9Training.com
http://forum2.aimoo.com/NaturalK9Training
(New Shelter Forum)

Heather....I reread the thread.....I would never put your finger down her throat.

I have also used the "Yelp" method, as it works with some but not others....I work with a specific breed, and Lexi no longer mouths. 

I should clarify...I use stuffed toys to put into their mouths first, use he "yelp method" as a litter mate would in play,  try to redirect the behavior, I also use an exercise with the adults of saying "NO bite" and removing them from me. I will put them in the dog room, gate or close the door. Each time the dog mouths, I repeat this exercise. Most eventually will get the message.

The wires by nature are mouthy, and we did all of these methods beforehand for several days, as her mouthing was intensifying.  Lexi was a little more determined, but in no way should you ever harm a dog! Wirehairs will shut down with heavy handed methods.....70% of our dogs come in as abused and neglected, so I would never endorse harming them, this is a touch, pressure. I would gently push my knuckle into her tooth when none of the above was detering her if my hand was in her mouth.  She did respond to this method, but with the original poster's case, I would try to remove the dog from you, wait until they settle down...and then repeat this exercise, if a puppy redirect the behavior with a stuffed toy. When they joyfully trot off then reward them for mouthing something appropriate.

---

Mary Murray
www.Gwprescue.com
Cesar Millan Ambassador
http://www.sessionswithcesar.com/GiftCard/PurchaseGiftCard.aspx


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Mary,

You bring up a good point. It's important for people when reading these posts to understand that some trainers / rescuers / behaviorists, like yourself,  works with a SPECIFIC breed, and therefore methods may be different.

Regardless of the method that IS used...it's ALWAYS necessary to have the right energy behind the method. Just initiating an action towards a dog doesn't correct behavior, if in fact, you are not applying leadership skills with that action.

Heather needs some training as a leader. My strong recommendation is that she enroll in a training course, so she can learn how to relate and correct her dog from a leaders standpoint, on not from a reactionary standpoint.

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Linda R. Blakely, Director
Raccoon Valley Animal Sanctuary & Rescue
www.raccoonvalley.com
Cesar Millan Ambassador

Thunderpaws,

I agree with you on the hypocracy of many trainers, but they are not the only people who give out advice, and do something else.I think one of the biggest disadvantages of forums is that people post without the thought that we, as readers, really don't know WHO you are, WHAT you do, and HOW you do it. Some work with specific breeds, some have years of experience, some do not. Some are So when general training techniques are thrown out there as suggestions, they can often be misused because the full understanding of how to do it, the energy behind it, isn't necessarily communicated or explained.

When people are seeking "advice" I try and not give general advice, but give them ideas of where they can go or what they can do to learn MORE about correcting the behavior.

In other words, I will try and give them an "idea" of an action, followed by a 'book', DVD, training course, trainer, etc...that can reinforce, and/or train them to do it properly. It has taken me awhile to learn how to write here to offer "ideas" or "solutions" without giving training techniques.

Cesar Millan has mastered that gift, that skill. He shows by example how to help dogs behavior with OR without tools, but he ALWAYS focuses on the energy and the intent behind those tools. Many just haven't made the connection between the tool and their USE of the tool yet. That's what I'm trying to help people understand.

 

 

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Linda R. Blakely, Director
Raccoon Valley Animal Sanctuary & Rescue
www.raccoonvalley.com
Cesar Millan Ambassador

I agree about not knowing who some of these posters are.  That is why I have my website below my name.  As I present workshops and hold classes, I work with any breed, any age, with any problem.  Many times people need to see what is needed.  They need to see that what they are being told to do with their dog will work with someone else.  Also, trying to explain things in words is not always as efficient as watching.  Even though I train for competitive dog sports, the concept is the same. 

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Andrea Dugan
www.NaturalK9Training.com
http://forum2.aimoo.com/NaturalK9Training
(New Shelter Forum)

Andrea,

Many do not want their names or businesses shown because some cut and paste and post to other websites without permission. The Yahoo Groups had a huge problem with that for awhile. I forget the "cyberworld" term for it, but it's serious.

It made me more aware to watch what I say! lol

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Linda R. Blakely, Director
Raccoon Valley Animal Sanctuary & Rescue
www.raccoonvalley.com
Cesar Millan Ambassador

What is the  lip curl over her baby canine thing?

 Susan

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AJ&L

What is the lip curl over the canine?

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AJ&L

Using the lip curl can be for many things.  Stop biting, relinquish something in their mouth, etc.  I do not believe in it because you are just causing the dog pain and not teaching him anything but you are not safe. 

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Andrea Dugan
www.NaturalK9Training.com
http://forum2.aimoo.com/NaturalK9Training
(New Shelter Forum)

Interesting thread.  I have several points to throw out there: 

First: 

MaryMurray:

I think the key is education of the public on what should be expected of a puppy....

Amen and alleluia. 

I got so tired of reading about all the "aggressive" and "dominant" puppies being "alpha rolled" from Maine to Alaska that I haven't checked this site in days and days.  I was getting seriously discouraged.

Puppies are immature creatures.  They don't have hormones, they don't have adult teeth, they get tired and fall asleep sitting up, they get wound up when they're tired, they might not have a good sense of balance and coordination with all their bones growing at all sorts of different rates, they don't understand their bodies and how sharp their little teeth and nails are, they can't control their bladders, it feels good to bite and tug and pounce, they don't know how powerful they are compared to the cat or the toddler or the neighbor's Bichon, they don't know their place in their little society, they don't know how to behave with their humans and doggy compatriots, they're trying to figure all of this out, and they need to be TAUGHT what their limits and places are and given an environment and habits and food and exercise that helps them learn--not a steady diet of alpha rolls.

Go ahead and and read a one year old the riot act about his behavior in a great big booming voice and point a finger at him like a domineering boss would treat an errant lackey employee, and most will submit--but do they know what they're submitting to and why?  Do they know how to change their behavior?  If they don't submit and instead hit or bite or scream or hold their breath or pee, is that a sign they are aggressive or dominant or constitutionally fearful?  I think not.

And yes, I just compared a dog to a child.  It is an analogy in terms of development of mammals.  I am not saying that a dog is a child.  I am saying a puppy is immature, like a young child, and should not be treated like an adult dog when it doesn't behave as you expect.  It should be properly redirected and taught its place and how you expect it to behave.  I am by no means saying puppies should get away with whatever they want.  I just think you don't treat an immature creature like an adult creature.

I dearly hope Cesar does a few puppy programs this season.  A bit of developmental education by someone with his good sense and stature would be a tremendous service to rescues and shelters.

Next point:

But back to the original poster's question--dogs tend to sit when they are pointed at, I have no real good reason why, I've never thought about it.  But I've seen innumerable instances on the show where Cesar accepts the dog standing calmly and doesn't seem at all worried about getting him to sit--he seems to be looking for a posture that shows the dog is snapping out of whatever behavior it was doing. 

Last point:

For the record--I'm not a professional trainer, and you couldn't pay me enough to do it--too hard--I'm just a life-long dog owner, an amateur with a couple of competitive retrievers I train now that I have the time and maturity.  I don't give any biographical info b/c there are a few folks out there who really, really disaprove of retrieving and retriever training, and I just don't want to subject myself to the potential for abuse for an online community so big where so many people come and go so much.  This is my sport, my fun, my little hobby world away from work, and want to keep it simple like that.