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I do not want to quit, but our original dog is beginning to look like a "Vic" dog with way too many bite marks on her! Our new girl, Marley and her are (I think) both guilty of aggressive behavior towards each other. They latch on to each other and NOTHING breaks the grip except for actually shoving a turned on hose in their mouths and holding it till they can't breath. Talk about a "red zone"! This happens every few days for insane reasons like too small a space, someone comes home, one is blocking the other etc. Both girls are dominate, both girls need to own most anything. We watch the videos, watch Cesar's programs and read all we can. I feel my husband and I are both calm as can be expected with this situation, but let's face it...these fights are hell to break up. We walk both dogs together, walk dogs separately, turn them over when aggression rears its' ugly head, zzzzst them whenever suspected blocking occurs. I feel like a dog warden. It has been two days since a fight and I'd like to think it is over, but reality says it probably isn't. We cannot think about ever leaving them home alone in a situation where they are together. We either take one, or lock them in safe areas. We have a weekend planned in late April and wonder if that will even happen. A dog sitter cannot be subject to their fights. I wonder if I could even break it up if it would happen when I am home alone with them. Last time we dragged them outside locked onto each other to shove the hose into mouths. We cannot separate them and we aren't whimps. I'm determined and my husband is strong. Mags is 30 lbs Jack Russell/Pointer mix and Marley is a Wired hair pointing Griffon hunting dog and weighs 53.4 lbs. I refuse to believe a dog is doomed to live with this need to attack. I've had many dogs - some were in need of attitude adjustments, but nothing where I feared for the life of another dog. Marley is learning all her obedience well except for listening in a "red zone". She sits, lays down and is beginning to walk without pulling. Our original Mags, is also walking well, doing her obedience well, but they don't know we exist when they get into it. When we encounter other dogs; which happens rarely in our remote area, they are unmanageable. We clearly are not the pack leaders YET. Any one out there with words of encouragement...words of wisdom and just how do I get Cesar to come to help in person? Marley cannot be given up on. We are her second home and I'm sure no one else would put up with this. We are willing to be whatever it takes to turn this around...I guess I need a clear list of what never to do, what always to do. Both girls can be loving and cuddly believe it or not. They can even do that in the same room at the same time, but then wham, the fight is on. The last one was clearly because I came home walking out to the car to get stuff and they were set off. I saw it happen and it was Marley who went for Mags. I want to own the dogs. I don't need for them to own me! I am actually complaining and admit it freely. I feel like crying. Help us save Marley and show Mags that she can be happy in a pack. Thank you for any help you can give.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g181/winchuck65/Dogs%20and%20Cats/WC2-1.jpg
I'm sure some of the great posters will give you excellent advice, but in the meantime, I've been following your story for some time and can feel the frustration that you must have. You no doubt realise that feelings of frustration are not helping (but that's not a criticism :)
One thing that occurred to me (not a solution, but a bandaid) is to carry citronella spray with you, so that if a fight occurs, you can shoot off a short burst which will break it up. I'm only suggesting this because you seem genuinely concerned that there could be a time when you can't separate them. So rather than the hose (not always practical!) this might give you some degree of control and even make you feel calmer?
Hopefully Carney or Jofi will swing by and give you some pointers for the long term. Good luck and don't give up just yet...jen
Not a great poster:-), but maybe some ideas to explore.
(1) I'd seriously consider seeing if you can find a trainer/behaviorist you feel comfortable with. It's really not just about "training" you - it might turn out that you really do know everything to do. But a dog-knowledgeable, calm 3rd person can sometimes take the necessary step back & see what you're REALLY doing, not just what you THINK you're doing. Timing, attitude, etc.
(2) I like Jen's idea. Not - as she noted - as a permanent control/management solution, but as a way for you to feel calmer and more in control. I might also suggest muzzles while you're actively working the issues - that would take the urgent danger out of the situation.
(3) OK, you've got the Citronella, maybe muzzles on, leashes on. The only way to work this out ... is, well, to work it out. Which means you have to work them together (thus the Citronella/muzzle, so you can focus on the work, not the fear). So, walk them together, yes. Take one dog out of the room. Bring her back - give her a treat she likes (a basket muzzle is needed for this). ONLY give treats to either dog when they are (a) in the presence of the other dog AND (b) calm in the presence of the other dog. At the first sign of tension, remove the dog AND give her a brief time by herself. (This works best if the dog places a high value on the relationship with you - so you're depriving her BRIEFLY of something she wants (NOT the same as a human 'time-out' - your dog's not going to 'think about it' - dogs don't work like that. You're just teaching her that good things/happiness occurrs when she is calm in the presence of the other dog.). As soon as she's calm, etc., bring her back.
(4) Try some pair activities other than the walk. This is a thing that dogs have in common with humans. They feel differently about "comrades", about dogs they *work* with. Think about sledding dogs & hunting packs - they often bond tightly. You've got hunting mixes - maybe train them to scent trailing (in a tandem harness). Your dogs aren't big/strong enough to pull much weight, but you could teach them the basics of carting with a light load. I don't know where you live or what you might already have about the house, but if you have snow, rig a tow rope on a tobaggon (my sister & I used to do this with our coonhounds - also NOT carting dogs - to pull the sled up the hill for us). Or, if no snow, take the tongue off of a 'little red wagon' and add a tow (tandem) rope instead. Give them a job with either the toboggan or the wagon - moving firewood, carrying groceries .. you get the idea. You can probably think of more ideas - the thought is to get them working together (think of it like a very intense version of 'the walk'). And use the muzzles at first so that you can work on this without too much tension.
Some thoughts anyway. I would really recommend the addition of a behaviorist/trainer, but maybe this will give you some ideas in the meantime.
--Shelagh
Thought of muzzle and the spray (your idea is better than the bear spray I was thinking of getting) and now will actually purchase two cage muzzles today along with the spray! Yes, the working together idea is possible. We live in paradise in a non-snow area on the So. Coast of Oregon called the "Banana Belt". We have a wagon, we have the ropes and we always have firewood, garden weeds etc. to haul out back. We also have a kayak hauler that would work well with large wheels to go over rocks and rough ground. The Clark dogs will be known as the kayak hauler dogs when we are done! I'd like to see them pulling the kayak down to the river . I know that I am very relaxed on the walks. I can feel it and no bad things happen on walks. I admit the tension when I am playing "warden". I wasn't for awhile, but with repeated episodes, I am expecting the worse to happen. I am not a dog and each day is not a new day with yesterday forgotten. The muzzle will relieve that tension of expected behavior. ahhh, at least I am still able to move forward believing I will see an end to these two girls being such bitches. I have printed off your advice to put on the fridge to give me a sense of that forward movement. I hate going backwards. I am an achiever kinda person who prides myself at being able to be a hard worker while being relaxed....that was me anyway! I am looking forward to being that person again. LOL
Forgot to say, that I think a dog behavior therapist does not exist in my rural remote area. I have to suck it up and do it myself. At least, my husband is on the same page willing to put in the work. It is 2.5 hours to the nearest "real" city. I will ask my vet if he knows of anyone. I could be wrong. Never know what may lurk in the woods nearby. If need be, I will travel over the hill with the girls in tow with them pulling the kayak hauler.
I just watched a recent episode of the show in which two dogs were fighting unpredictably.....Smokey and....someone, can't remember the other dog's name, they were Chow mixes. I don't have NatGeo, but it must be one of the newer ones as I watched it on the website. That might be helpful to you. He showed them how to separate them and what to do afterward (make them lie down next to each other until they were calm and then make up, more or less). He also talked about the owners' energy and getting them more exercise. Yikes.
Thanks...looking as I type. I just ordered muzzles and will buy the spray locally as shipping was "ouch" on the spray. Sun coming out so almost time for exercise! exercise! exercise! My butt is shrinking from all the walking; which is a good thing. LOL
The way they teach to break up a dog fight at our local shelter, is to grab the back legs and pull them out from under the dog, with a step back. Their natural reaction is to attempt to correct their legs, because their brain tells them that their balance is off, and they should let go. It's safe because the dog shouldn't be able to reach you back there, and is effective with our chow mix, who holds when she bites as well.
But we do also keep a can of citronella there (as well as here with our own dogs, in case any of the power breeds bicker with each other), though we've never had to use it, so I can't say how effective it is.
I know it can be very frustrating; my Jacqui used to be a real fighter too- even broke a puppy's leg once. But your dogs CAN recover! Jacqui did, and has even become the model citizen of our household. So, good luck!
Asher; head trainer and secretary of Dog Repair Inc. rehabilitation center in Mebane, North Carolina
Man, I am so sure I am going to get crap for the advice I'm about to give you, I can almost read the outraged posts in my mind...but that means you'll get more responses to your problem, so I'm going to go ahead.
It sounds like you may not be able to find/afford to have a behaviorist come out to your house...and in a situation where you are limited like that, I know that the one dude you maybe can find isn't always going to be a great choice. Some guy who trains hunting dogs in his backyard with a large stick and an electric collar-not everybody lives in Chicago or LA, with a phone book full of choices. Some pounds/humane societies offer some trainers, but again, not everywhere (the local pound in my area is twenty miles from my house-run by the local jail, no trainers offered, and the closest humane society is even farther away).
So, if you are stuck doing this on your own, you'll want to stack the odds in your favor. Cesar often gets a tool to help him if he is concerned he might be bitten-I think he uses a tennis racket, usually. Put leashes on both the dogs, high up on the neck, like on the show. You take one, your husband the other. You can wear gloves, but honestly, the reason most people want a trainer in this situation is:
1-you might get bitten
2-you might react incorrectly and screw up your dog
However, in your situation, with a limited pool of available trainers, you may be just as likely to screw up your dog as any trainer you are likely to find. So, your call.
My next bit of advice is to start setting your dogs up. With each of you on guard, watching the dog you are assigned to, move the two dogs close to each other. Give one affection but not the other. Try and provoke the reaction you don't want. If the dogs don't screw up, you can't correct them. As soon, AS SOON as you see the beginnings of a reaction in one of your dogs, correct the hell out of it. Correct the dog that starts the fight, preferably before it turns into a fight. You'll see a look, or some stiffness/tension, you'll hear a growl, whatever that first sign is, the person who is watching that dog needs to immediately get on it. Stop the dog at 3, don't wait to try and stop it at 10.
Also, it might help to start regimenting the dogs interactions. Everybody wants one big happy family, but that's not always possible, at least not right away. Don't ever let them loose in the house together without somebody watching them. Treat them like puppies that aren't housebroken, basically. When they get to be out of their crates in the house, they each have a separate area/spot that is theirs to lay in. You can pick a spot for each of them in every room in the house, if necessary. The house isn't theirs, it's yours, and they are behaving in a way that means they can't have any privileges until they've earned your trust again.
Their crates, to their spot on the floor, to outside on a leash, to separate bowls in the kitchen, back to their crates again. It'll suck, but they won't kill each other, and it'll give you the opportunity/control to correct the dogs behavior when they act up.
Good luck, this one sounds rough.
Jack, there are parts of your statement I agree with and parts I don't.
What I DO agree with in your suggestion (just imo) is purposefully exposing them to what it is they dislike. However, I think it's a much, MUCH safer idea, to try and turn that thing they dislike, into something they DO like. (Redirection is a really useful tool to avoid having a bite incident.) However, I would not recommend inducing the situation, as you will be tense yourself, and will put out the "energy" that it is the violent reaction you want when the circumstance comes up. That is not something you want your dogs to think you want.
This brings about a point, making me think back on conditioning Jacqui not to attack the other dogs. She did it at a hairs warning. Just the slightest twitch of the lip. No growl, no completely obvious aggressive posturing. That's part of why I've struggled with it over the last year and a half- because catching her at, as Jack put it, "3 instead of 10" was very difficult.
However, the turning point was when we taught her to first, IGNORE the other dogs. If she is uncomfortable, ignore. When we were out in the yard with puppies loose (puppies are especially bad, because they jump right up into her personal space), if the puppies started to come at her, I would encourage her to walk the other direction, and shoo the puppies away.
Then, gradually, once she was able to ignore them, I started letting the puppies come over to her, one at a time, only to sniff her. Then, they could come over, as long as they didn't jump on her; and so on. Little bits of exposure go a looong way.
Today, she makes a big grumbly fuss over them, but never hurts them, even when they invade her space, bite her, and lick in her mouth.
Baby steps, guys. Baby steps.
If you want these dogs, you will have to devote the time; even if that time happens to be a long period.
Also, Jack, your speaking on lack of trainers available made me think a bit; there are an awful lot of people on this forum. Why not post a help wanted question, asking if there is anyone in the area that might be able to come over and give you an extra hand to help train the dogs, Winchuck? They won't be Ceasar, but if they're here, that means they must have SOME experience with dog troubles.
Winchuck,
DogMechanic, above, reminded me of something I meant to tell you. I'm up in Hillsboro - way too far north for you, but I recall that there is (or used to be?) a K9 Trainer's school out on the mid (I think) coast. It's a school for trainers, not for dogs, I recall - but they must have some folks around there - maybe that live further south - that might be willing to help, might even have a private practice.
I'm sorry I can't remember the name well enough to find them on Google, but maybe your vet might know?
Wow you guys! Thanks. OMG I have work to do. First of all we have taken each dog by the hind feet...lifted them from the floor and the bite won't release! That's when we carried them outside to hose down. We hauled them by their hind quarters off the floor. I've gotten the Citronella spray sitting out for us to grab. I have the muzzels ordered and should get them soon. I will use the muzzels to get them to invade each other's space rewarding for lack of conflict and removing the guilty dog that breaks the rules from the room. Personally I need the muzzels so I can stay calm. Even trying to stay calm, I catch myself with a tight gut and breathing in short huffs knowing what is coming The muzzels will put me in a better place. I'm also looking forward to getting them to pull a cart together with muzzels. No fight since the last one posted! Ahhh, but I do find myself expecting one. We are both watching like hawks and have flipped Marley a few times for growling when Mags got in her space at the wrong time. I took my husband up river dropping him off with his kayak to fish and took both dogs separating them with one in the cab of the truck and one in the bed of the truck. They both ran free on the river and came back each time I called with no problems. They shared the same spot several times that had some strong scent and didn't growl or twitch. I caught Mags taking a bite at the neighbor dog through the fence and flipped her. We aren't letting them run the fence with the neighbor dogs and Marley has decided that isn't fun any longer. Mags still wants to create drama at the fence line. but comes on a dime when called. Both are minding very well with and without treats. I do have hope especially when I see how much Marley has learned since December. She sits with just a flip of the hand and stays well enough for a beginner. My goal is to stay until whenever I release them and that might be longer than minutes or seconds like they are doing now. I do know that this is not a quick fix. I will try to find the place up the coast. That weekend I want to go away in late April will be a Ombudsman training in Portland....I will drop Marley off in Hillsboro! LOL JackHawk...I completely agree that I must do what I have to do and not offended by your post. Hopefully, I won't have to resort to using a club, but I think I may ask for an electronic collar for my birthday coming up. I would buy one today, but I'm not even sure it would break the fight up if I set it at the highest level. I see it useful for fence running or have them coming back in large open areas or hiking situations I live in wide open spaces where I may not have the control I need. Some folk wince at Cesar's methods; which makes me wonder about them. I will do what is necessary to get my dogs to be happier in their own skins. I need to concentrate more on not paying any attention to them when I drive in the gate and they are so happy mom came home. I am working today, so when I get home this evening I will remember not to look at them. There are areas that I need to hit myself over the head with till I get it right. A customer brought in a dog to the store this morning that had issues. She said it didn't like strangers. I didn't look at it and squatted down and the dog came over to greet me. She about fell over. Avoidance does work! My husband no longer lets Mags sit on his lap trying to promote more peace. Both girls want to own my husband. He must smell good or something. Things are moving in the right direction and never fail to give me your input. I surely need a village to succeed at this task. Baby steps.....baby steps....more baby steps.
This is great news, Winchuck, and I'm glad for you! If I hear any thing new as far as techniques or tips go, I will drop another post in here. :) Please keep us updated!
Asher, Looked at your website...great work! So appreciate people like you who give their time and love to such a worthy cause! Do check back. I am sure my saga will go on for a few more months. Now it is almost time to go home....do not look at the dogs. Do NOT LOOK AT THE DOGS. Now to remember. LOL I once had a child with Attachment Disorder live with me for a few years; which gave me some tools of patience, and stick to it ness that is necessary with Mags and Marley....I know I can do what needs to be done, but I always need a list to work off of and you guys have given me that list.
Thank you, thank you. Me and my dad work really hard with all these crazy pooches.
Dogs and children are very much alike! Likewise, my experience training dogs has made me rather good at handling my nieces and nephews (numerous and belligerent).
I was happy to help, and will certainly check in!